Could I get your opinions?

[John'smom]

Ladies,
Hello! I am new to the board. I have poured over the heart of dakota website and catalog. I have two children that I would love to combine in HOD, but I don't know if that's the best thing. They each would be doing their own Math and Phonics/Grammar. My dd will be in First Grade next year and ds will be in Third Grade. I'm sure ds could do BHFHG, but know it would be too much for dd. I didn't know if Beyond Little Hearts would be too little for ds. I know the history books with it are suggested for 3-5 grades. Again I would love to combine as I feel a little overwhelmed at teaching with two separate HOD programs, but if it's what's best for my dc then I'm willing to do so. Just wondering what you all think. Thanks so much.

[3musketeers]

John's mom
Welcome to HOD. I think that combining kiddos where you can saves so much time and work for everyone. I think you are right on track with wanting to do seperate math and LA but then combine other subjects like Bible, science, read alouds/storytime, history, etc. I would first check the placement chart on the website or in the catalog. That will give you a place to start for each of your dc. If your younger placed in LHFHG and older in Bigger. I think you could safely meet in the middle with Beyond for all the combining subjects mentioned above. Then add DITHOR for your 3rd grader and emergent readers or phonics for your younger. The following year (Bigger) adds extensions that your older could use if he needed some extra for 4th grade. The Beyond Bible, history, science, and storytime selections would definitely be sufficient for your 3rd grader. If you wanted to purchase the Bigger guide as well you could do the LA, Reading, and Math boxes with your older child from there. Your younger could choose a phonics, handwriting, and math from the LHFHG choices.

Hope that helps a little. I know more will chime in soon.
Happy 2010,
Cindy

[my3sons]

Welcome to the HOD Board! In order to give you more sound advice, I'd love for you to share your thoughts after looking at the placement chart. You can print it off and circle where each of your dc seems to fall individually in each column, and then let us know what you found. Here is a link to that chart:
http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

You can choose to combine or not to combine with HOD. Either way, I'm sure you'll enjoy it! I'll check back to see what your thoughts are and then respond with some better advice.

In Christ,
Julie

[John'smom]

Cindy,
That was exactly what I was thinking. My thought was to combine them in Beyond this year and then next year do Bigger with extensions and continue throughout with the subsequent programs with extensions.

Julie,
I've looked at the chart a million times. I'll go through the chart and list each child individually here. Hope it makes sense.

Dd who will be in First grade:
Reading: We use Spell to Write and Read and she knows all the phonograms and is starting to read on her own some, but I have up to this point not went any further with her. I usually wait until First to teach reading full blown, but I am seriously praying about working with her more this half of the year. All that to say she may be at the Little Hearts or Beyond by next year.

Writing: I am definitely going to start her writing her letters this second half of the school year. She already writes what she wants in manuscript all caps. I use Cursive First to teach handwriting, so that's what I'll use now with her. By next school year she should be to Beyond level with Writing.

Grammar:She'll be ready for Beyond.

Math: She is currently doing Math U See Primer and is doing very well, so next year we'll head into Math U See Alpha. That again makes her ready for Beyond.

Ds who will be in Third Grade

Reading: He is reading independently, so Beyond or Bigger.

Writing: Again, my dc start with Cursive. Ds can do everything that is required under the Bigger column. I was seriously considering using a manuscript program this next year as his lower case manuscript letters look fine, but are not always formed "properly" during the process.

Grammar: Ds could do Bigger.

Math: Ds is currently doing Math U See Beta and will continue into Gamma next year.

Next year my plan is to continue Spell to Write and Read and Math U See with both of my dc. I definitely would love to DITHOR with ds next year as well.

If you need me to go further down in the colums to Bible, history, and science, please let me know. I appreciating you reading my book that I've written and trying to help me figure this all out.

[Carrie]

John's mom,

Welcome to the board! We're glad to have you here. Thanks so much for sharing your kiddos with us!

In looking over your thoughts, I'm wondering how well your daughter does in listening to read-alouds without pictures? This will make a difference in our advice. Have you had a chance to do any chapter book style reading to her as of yet, or is she still mainly listening to picture books?

Another thing that will make a difference in our advice is how well your son is reading right now. Is he beyond Amelia Bedelia and into chapter books already? If there is a huge gap between your two kiddos in their reading level, it can prove interesting to combine them for their listening level of material too. If you get a chance to list a couple of titles that he's currently reading that would give me a better idea of where he's at there.

Next, I'm wondering how well your older son does as far as copywork. Can he easily copy several sentences up to a paragraph daily without any trouble? Or is writing a chore or a battle with him? This will help us know what he'll need as far as writing instruction and will guide us as to which guide would suit him best.

Last, I'd love to know how well you think your daughter and son work together? Do they seem to combine well and work well together? Depending on your thoughts in this area, we can help make a plan that will meet your family goals best too.

I always lean toward having families combine, if possible, for at least their first year of HOD. This sometimes requires tweaking, but helps ease into the routine of schooling with HOD. This doesn't mean you'd need to combine forever, but it is a good way to begin. However, sometimes kiddos aren't good candidates for combining, and if so it's so helpful to sort through that beforehand. So that's why I've asked the questions above. If you get a chance to answer them, we can advise you even better.

Blessings,
Carrie

[John'smom]

Carrie,
Thanks for asking more questions as I know in the end it will help me feel more confident in the decisions I make.

My dd will certainly listen to chapter books with no problem. We're reading through The Little House books and are currently on The Long Winter. We've done Charlotte's Web, etc.

My ds seems to be on his level according to this page as far as reading. He loves to listen to me read aloud, write his own stories, and write in his "hymn book", but has not shown an interest in just picking up a book on his own. He will read to me when I ask though no problem. Today we started a chart to encourage reading. I have him reading through your emergent readers list and he's read through the first three with no problem. He's read Amelia Bedelia in the past as well. He also has no problem reading the Christian Liberty Nature Reader: Book 1. He's even been reading in book 2. He can read his curriculum that's written on his level pretty much with no help. I'd say he's where he's suppose to be, but not reading chapter books like Charlotte's Web and the like. Not sure if I answered that question well enough.

My ds does copywork now mainly Scripture verses that correspond with his science. Plus he write in his books (the ones he's creating). He always doesn't show as much enthusiasm though when it comes to his schoolwork handwriting. KWIM? Hope that makes sense. He can do it, but it's not his favorite thing. He'd rather do his Math or something. He generally has a very good attitude over his schoolwork though.

My dd and ds get along very well. They are each other's best friends, thanks to homeschooling where they can spend time together. We combine their history and art now, plus read alouds. We cook together as well. Now I feel like I atleast answered two questions definitively.

I really appreciate you asking these questions. If I can clarify anything more, I'm more than willing. I'm also willing to answer any more questions as well.

[Carrie]

John's Mom,

Thanks so much for sharing more about your kiddos. It really helps, and I am grateful you were kind enough to take the time to enlighten us!

From what you've shared, with all combining scenarios aside, it sounds like your daughter would fit best into Little Hearts for His Glory and your son would fit best overall in Beyond (with the addition of upping a few parts of language arts and math).

Since your daughter does listen in well to chapter books, she could definitely listen to the material in Beyond and likely could participate in most of Beyond. It is also fine for her to still be doing phonics while doing Beyond, however the writing would be one area that will be tougher if she's still learning to write her letters. You have a great plan to begin working on her manuscript letters now so that she's ready to write words in lowercase letters by the time she heads into Beyond.

I'm not sure of the ages of your kiddos, which will make a difference in their best long-term placement based on their age in relation to the maturity of the content in the material. So, I'm assuming in these scenarios below that your daughter will be 6 in Beyond and your son will be 8. If I'm incorrect here, definitely correct me.

When combining your kiddos within Beyond, I'd plan to use a handwriting workbook for your daughter (likely A Reason for Handwriting A or its equivalent - which includes copying words each day and copying an entire short verse once a week). It sounds like you have your daughter's spelling, reading, and math covered, so she'll be fine there. You may wish to make next year your big push year for phonics with your daughter, in order to help her be ready for the Emerging Reader's Set by the time she gets to Bigger Hearts.

When combining within Beyond for your son, you'll want to add on your own higher level of handwriting for your son (something like Cheerful Cursive or its equivalent). You'll also need to add in the Rod and Staff English 2 from Bigger Hearts, but because you have your own spelling program and math program, you won't actually need to purchase the Bigger Hearts guide (as you'll be upping those areas automatically on your own). Rod and Staff English 2 should be done daily in order to finish within a year. The lessons are already divided daily for you. Do much of each lesson orally requiring only a small part to be written on paper each day. English 2 is appropriate for a third grader, as the sequence of Rod and Staff is quite advanced in the area of English.

As far as reading goes, I would recommend beginning your son in the middle of the Emerging Reader's Set (around Prairie School or so) and continuing on to the end. According to the link you sent above your son is reading at the 2.5 - 3.7 reading level and our Emerging Reader Set is in the 2.4 - 3.4 reading level, so it should match him very well. By beginning in the middle of the set, you will be beginning at his reading level. It will be very important to ask the included comprehension and narration questions in the Emerging Reader plans for each day's short reading (in order to make sure he is comprehending and is reading aloud well). Then, after he completes the last half of the set, he will be ready to move into Drawn into the Heart of Reading Level 2/3 to finish out the last half of the year.

Normally, we'd also recommend doing the dictation passages for spelling within Bigger Hearts (for your son). However, it sounds as if you have that area covered within your current spelling program. If I'm not correct, then you'll need to add in the dictation for your son as well.

You can plan for an adjustment period when your kiddos move up to Bigger Hearts the next year, however you can always go half-speed when you get to Bigger Hearts to ease your younger child into the program if needed when you get there. In this way you can keep them together for the long haul!

Blessings,
Carrie

[my3sons]

I have a post I was typing as Carrie was typing that says virtually the same thing. Carrie already said it so succinctly that I won't try to add more to an already well-laid out plan for your precious little ones. I think you would love combining for Beyond. It was such a wonderful start to American History for us. It was also great - and important - preparation for Bigger Hearts. I would say that when combining dc it becomes more and more important as time goes on for the younger one in the combining scenario to get his/her reading and writing skills down. This lessens the gap between ages and makes combining go quite smoothly. So, the only other thought I'd had was that it would be very beneficial for you to use the remainder of this year to work in phonics/reading and writing lowercase letters with your dd. You'd already had this thought on your own, so I guess I'm just nodding my head in agreement with you here. I am very excited for you to begin Beyond with your dc. We are doing it now and loving it.

In Christ,
Julie

[John'smom]

Thanks for responding, ladies. Now that you've responded I have a few questions. What is it about Bigger Hearts that makes it so much more than Beyond? What area about it makes it so much harder than Beyond? Not sure I'm wording that well. When you say half-speed for Bigger, does that mean you take two years to do Bigger rather than one full year? Is there always an adjustment period when moving from one level to the next?

Carrie,
I have a few questions. I could tell that my dd would best fit Little Hearts, but was surprised to hear you say ds would best fit Beyond. From what I could tell on the charts, he would be fine for Bigger. I know it must have been something I typed about where he's at. Is it the handwriting or reading thing? Just curious because I would love some insight to know what area I need to strengthen for him.

Also I could not tell from your answer which scenario you personally thought was better, combining or not combining.

Again, thanks for taking time out of your very busy schedules to help me process all this.

[Carrie]

John'smom,

I would say that the amount of writing required in Bigger Hearts is one of the larger differences between Beyond and Bigger Hearts. I was looking for a past thread comparing the amount of writing in Beyond and Bigger, but found this one comparing the amount of writing within Bigger and Preparing Hearts instead. It will give you a good feel for the amount of writing required weekly in Bigger. Link: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3602

Another big difference between Beyond and Bigger Hearts is the level of the reading material, along with the more difficult wording used within the primary texts in Bigger Hearts. So, in looking over what you shared, I was leaning toward giving your son every opportunity to grow and mature in the areas of reading and writing before heading into the upped level of skills required in those areas in Bigger Hearts. I also tend to err on the side of allowing kiddos who aren't especially fond of writing within their school day plenty of time to grow into the HOD guides, so you don't end up with too much before they're ready.

You would certainly know your son far better than me, however and would know his best placement because you have much more information about him than I do.

As far as combining or not combining goes, it is purely a personal call. We have many families who happily combine with HOD and many other families who happily separate their kiddos. My own kiddos are each almost 4 years apart from their next sibling in line (at ages 14, almost 11, 7, and 3), so we teach our kiddos separately. We do enjoy it though.

The wonderful part of HOD is that is will work either way. Another upside is that you don't always have to separate or always combine. You can change your plan if needed as your family grows and changes.

It's important to remember that no matter what curriculum you use, combining children will always take some tweaking. If you find yourself tweaking so much that you could almost have less work teaching your kiddos separately, then it may be a good time to look at separating instead.

If you have other questions, ask away.

Blessings,
Carrie

[John'smom]

Carrie,
Thanks again for the more info. After reading what you wrote, I do have a new question. In Beyond and Bigger (when looking over the 1st week of lessons plans) when it says to read Pgs 2 & 12 in Pioneers and Patriots, does that mean the student is to read it by himself. Is it assigned to him or his the parent suppose to read it aloud to them? I hope I'm making sense. The same question for Bigger in their texts, does the student do it independently or does the teacher read aloud or does it depend on the family. I guess I'm wondering how it was written to do.

Thanks for the link in the writing thing. It was very helpful. I think ds could do the writing required in Bigger, but not sure about the reading.

I totally agree about the tweaking thing. I really want something I'm not having to tweak a lot. I know some may be necessary, but I don't want to be re-writing the curriculum. I'm doing too much of my planning and acquiring books with what I'm doing now and want to shy away from that for next year. Dh is also looking forward to me using something that is just grab and go as well. I want the real book aspect though, so this is while I'm drawn to HOD. I read to dh what they'd learn in Beyond and he seemed very happy. Now we just need to sit together and look over everything. I've looked at it so much I feel like I've got it almost memorized.

One other question is do you feel like the Science in Beyond would be enough for a 3rd grade boy. His strengths are in Math and Science. We are currently using Jeannie Fulbrights Exploring Creation with Astronomy and he loves it. I know the text used for the Science is on 2nd grade level, yet someone else told me it was for children ages 6-9.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer all my questions.

[tjswaine]

Hello,

It is my understanding that the parent reads the History section of Beyond to the child.

My son enjoys the Science in Little Hearts and I feel it is enough for him. However, we are also using Exploring Creation with Astronomy and are planning to read through one of Jeannie's books every school year. We read it every day as a family and enjoy learning together. If your son loves it, I would go ahead and continue with it.

Enjoy HOD!

[Carrie]

John's mom,

You would likely want to use the science within Bigger Hearts for your third grader or use an Apologia book to raise the level of science (if you choose to go the combining within Beyond route). Either route will provide you with a level of science more in alignment for a third grader. For what it's worth we will use Apologia's Astronomy book in our upcoming RTR guide and do use Apologia Zoo. 3 in our CTC guide, so you may wish to choose something other than those volumes (even though I see you mentioned the Astronomy book already. )

As far as Bigger Hearts goes, you can either read aloud the history and science books to your son or have your son read them himself, depending on his reading level and level of independence. We generally follow the rule that CM outlined that a child of 8 or 9 should read any of his/her own school books as soon as he/she is able. You may feel differently about this though and can easily do whatever suits your family best.

I know it can take time and plenty of brainpower to find your best HOD fit, however I'll encourage you that finding the best fit is the hardest part. Once you have that in place the guide will make teaching in the day-to-day easier than what you've likely been used to doing. We pray you will find the Lord's best for your family, whatever it may be.

Blessings,
Carrie

[John'smom]

This is really helping me think this through. I do have two more questions now.

If I do Beyond and combine my dc, it looks like the Science text (like we talked previously) is on 2nd grade level. Do you think that would be too much for my dd who then will be in 1st grade? Also are there any other Apologia texts I should shy away from, that you eventually plan on using?

Last question, I was thinking that it would be so great to see this stuff in person and was lamenting the fact that I probably wouldn't be able to, until I received an e-mail this morning. When I saw this I was elated. So is it true that Heart of Dakota will be at the Midwest Homeschool Convention in Cincinnati? If so that would be awesome as dh and I are going. This way I can see everything. I am just so visual it would be a huge help.

Thanks again. Have a blessed day.

[my3sons]

I don't think the science will be too much for your younger child. My ds was quite young when we began Beyond (5 1/2 yo - we started half-speed and did it 4 days a week), and he loved the science. The readings are not long nor wordy, and coupled with the experiments in Beyond's plans, the concepts are visually able to be understood well in a hands-on way.

Yes, HOD will be in Cincinnati!

In Christ,
Julie