Differences between Language Arts...

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LeAnna
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Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:59 pm

Differences between Language Arts...

Post by LeAnna » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:16 pm

I know that I keep bringing this up, :lol: Just trying to figure out what would be best for the kids in the years to come. :D
I just noticed on the website, that you aren't recommending Language Lessons for the Well Trained Mind, anymore. What is the difference between that and the Language Lessons for the Very Young? Both look very similar. And, are you recommending the Language Lessons in place of Rod and Staff English 2 or to supplement for the early grades 1 and 2? I am thinking about starting Rod and Staff English 2, based on how things go, in Preparing when they are in 2nd and 3rd grade? Does this seem reasonable? Based on what I have heard from others on the board, it seems like it is pretty advanced.


LeAnna :D
Love my husband of 18 years this year;
Love my 3 teenagers--13, 15, and 16. They keep me young, but hanging on for dear life! :lol:
Used HOD in the earliest years with all three of them!

3musketeers
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by 3musketeers » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:00 pm

Leanna,
I am sure more will join in with better advice than mine. But we are having a lazy summer day, so I thought I would try to help.

I don't think HOD has ever recommended Well Trained Mind "First language Lessons". HOD has recomended choosing between "Language Lessons for Little one", "...Very Young", etc. (a series from Sandi Queen) or Rod and Staff Grammar.

I don't see Sandi Queen's Language Lessons listed in the new HOD catalog, but they may be in there.

It is my understanding that it is a good idea to wait for grammar until your dc have their phonics down solid and enjoy reading. This I'm sure is debatable according to the teaching method you adhere to. Some like to start earlier. Charlotte Mason began "grammar" in mid to late elementary.

The difference between the grammars you listed are as follows:
Well Trained Mind First Language Lessons are Classical with emphasis on rote memory in the early grades per the "grammar stage" and diagramming. I know you would find more about them at there website. My description is no where near complete.

Sandi Queen's Language Lessons are very different. Though the similar name can be confusing.They are more gentle. They are very Charlotte Mason. They center more on introducing young students to the love of language in general. Sandi Queen also has a web site which would give you a better idea of her program.

Rod and Staff is very gentle, yet traditional. It is a very comprehensive grammar and writing program. It gives the dc bite size concepts that build on each other in a very logical way.

I think HOD used to give a choice for those looking for a more traditional grammar or something more gentle Charlotte Masony. All are good programs. You will just want to think about your personal teaching style and methods you like.

I think HOD recommends R&S 2nd Grade Preparing to Build in Bigger--- Right around the time you have finished phonics instruction and sometime between beginning to finishing up Emergent readers.

Keep us posted as you look at different Language programs. I know the search can be tough. I really think Carrie has made a great choice in R&S and you can trust her lesson plans. :D

Blessings,
3musketeers
"Let us not despise the day of small things nor grow weary of well-doing." CM Gal. 6:9
Big & LHTH 09-10
Prep & LH 10-11
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momontheprairie
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:51 pm
Location: Alabama AND Minnesota

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by momontheprairie » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:19 pm

Well, I don't have any experience with the WTM language arts (FLL). I shied away from that because I just don't take well to the educational philosophy presented there. I have used Rod and Staff and Queen's. I love both! Rod and Staff is very solid but can become a bit redundant if used continually. I love how it is God-honoring and thorough. We use Queen's as a way of breaking up the rigor of Rod and Staff. My kids LOVE the Queen's lessons and because of that we will continue with them for the long haul. I plan on having the kids do four years of Rod and Staff (levels 2, 3, 5, and 7) and the rest with Queen's.

We homeschool year round and this may play into our needing breaks from R&S. I also love all of the things that Queen's adds which are not present in R&S, such as picture study, poetry, copywork, dictation, etc.

Queen's is definitely not as rigorous as R&S. That is why we alternate. :D
Carrie
Married to Major Dan for the last 13 years. :)
Preparing with ds 11, 9, and 7
Little Hearts with dd 4
Everyone does MUS, Queen's LL, Latin, and Bedell at mealtimes :)

Mom2Monkeys
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Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by Mom2Monkeys » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:16 pm

momontheprairie wrote:Well, I don't have any experience with the WTM language arts (FLL). I shied away from that because I just don't take well to the educational philosophy presented there. I have used Rod and Staff and Queen's. I love both! Rod and Staff is very solid but can become a bit redundant if used continually. I love how it is God-honoring and thorough. We use Queen's as a way of breaking up the rigor of Rod and Staff. My kids LOVE the Queen's lessons and because of that we will continue with them for the long haul. I plan on having the kids do four years of Rod and Staff (levels 2, 3, 5, and 7) and the rest with Queen's.

We homeschool year round and this may play into our needing breaks from R&S. I also love all of the things that Queen's adds which are not present in R&S, such as picture study, poetry, copywork, dictation, etc.

Queen's is definitely not as rigorous as R&S. That is why we alternate. :D
I was trying to plan how to do just what you mentioned. So in grades 2 and 3 you use R&S 2&3, 4th QLL (which level?), 5th R&S 5, 6th QLL (level?), 7th R&S 7???


And I do think that FLL was originally a choice for HOD but I believe she changed that once she found R&S...which is completely unbeatable IMHO...I've been searching and searching trying to find something for my dd to do independently and just can't find anything as great as R&S.
~~Tamara~~
Enjoying HOD since 2008

DD15 long-time HODie finding her own new path
DS12 PHFHG {dysgraphia, APD, SID}
DS9 PHFHG
DS6 LHFHG
DD new nursling

momontheprairie
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:51 pm
Location: Alabama AND Minnesota

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by momontheprairie » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:07 am

I wish I could say that I have a definitve schedule all ready, but I don't! :oops: We homeschool year round so things can get monotonous. I basically go with something until they are tired of it and then switch programs until they are tired of that...

That said, this is the schecule I am playing with:

3rd grade: Rod and Staff 2nd interchanging with Queen's Language Lessons for the Very Young 2 (summer, breaks, and long days will be Queen's)
4th grade: Rod and Staff 3rd interchanging with Queen's LL for the Elementary Child (again alternating Queen's and R&S)
5th grade: Queen's LL for the Secondary Child, break from Rod and Staff
6th grade: Rod and Staff 5th with any Queen's not finished
7th grade: Queen's for the Secondary Child 2, break from Rod and Staff
8th grade: Rod and Staff 7 Queen's High School book 1

:D

I hope this will keep everyone from getting burned out and still get picture study and copywork/dictation done more often.
Carrie
Married to Major Dan for the last 13 years. :)
Preparing with ds 11, 9, and 7
Little Hearts with dd 4
Everyone does MUS, Queen's LL, Latin, and Bedell at mealtimes :)

Carrie
Site Admin
Posts: 8125
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:39 pm

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by Carrie » Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:30 pm

Ladies,

I just wanted to pop-in and clarify HOD's stance on this particular area, as its getting to be an often asked question. We did originally begin by carrying FLL after using it with our own oldest son in years 1 and 2, but then when FLL 3 was not done and there was no hope of it appearing on the horizon, we looked for something else. As we headed into Easy Grammar and later BJU English, we found there was little carry-over of any of the concepts we'd studied in FLL. We were struggling with any retention in grammar at all with the grammars we'd used and felt we were working way too hard at grammar instruction to have that be the effect. :wink:

At this point, we went the more CM route for grammar for a year (except for using Intermediate Language Lessons for 3 years for the writing portions only). We came upon the Queen's books and felt they embraced the more CM-style language arts approach that we were leaning toward, so we made the switch as a company from carrying FLL to carrying the Queen's. :D

As the next year passed, I really struggled with the no grammar until the child is 12 CM approach. I felt I was missing the nuts and bolts of how to talk to my oldest son about how to do a written narration, or why the sentences that he'd written weren't complete, or how he could add descriptors to make his writing better, etc. We were lacking a common terminology of how to communicate about his writing. We also had an impending writing assessment coming about which I was pretty sure he would do fine, but really wanted to make sure his grammar was also in place. Enter... Rod and Staff. When we made the switch to Rod and Staff 4, I could tell an immediate difference in my son's understanding of grammar and later as the year wore on, within his writing. He has now completed all of 4 and 5 and will head on into 6. My second son in line has completed all of 2 and 3 and will head into 4 next year at half-speed. :wink:

As the years have passed while we've been using Rod and Staff English 2-5, we have found less about the Queen's books that is of worth in the grammar area. It is so light in that capacity that we've become uncomfortable with its coverage. As we've continued to write our guides with a CM slant, we have discovered that we've included most of the skills within the Queen's books within our own HOD guides. Our guides include copywork, poetry, creative writing, and written narrations. Rod and Staff takes care of the grammar and includes more formulistic writing. As an added benefit HOD guides also include the CM-skills of dictation and oral narration. So, with the only extra included in the Queen's books being picture study, we no longer feel it's worthwhile for HOD customers to do the Queen's books, as there is much overlap in language arts skills. We will be done carrying the Queen's books when our stock runs out. :D

We've found that we agree with CM in just about all areas, but the delayed introduction of formal grammar is not one of them. We do advocate a gentler very CM-style grammar introduction with Beyond, but then move toward a more formal approach with Rod and Staff after that. Yet, we do not fall in the classical category for grammar instruction, as we advise completing Rod and Staff 6 by the end of grade 8. We feel this plan is the best of both worlds, making sure grammar (for the purpose of writing better) is well-covered, yet not at a pace that will burn-out either student or teacher. :wink:

While you can easily take the grammar path you feel is best for your family, since this is the HOD board, I wanted to fully explain HOD's reasoning in this area. :wink:

Blessings,
Carrie

Mom2Monkeys
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Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by Mom2Monkeys » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:29 pm

Thanks to Carrie and Carrie for your insight. :D

HOD Carrie, have you found any benefit in having a less intense grammar year between some of the R&S levels since grammar instruction (in most programs) becomes so redundant with a lot of repeat lessons, just with slightly more depth? Or do you find that to be one of the strong points of grammar. I remember when we first started with HOD we had already completed R&S2 and were about to start with Beyond- you mentioned that sometimes it's good to have a lighter grammar year and I should probably take a year off R&S and wait to start 3, so I am just wondering if you still take that stance or have realized a better philosophy on the matter or was that just specific to our situation??? Now, DD is going into 3rd and doing R&S3 with Bigger so I've thought about taking an easy year between R&S levels (3-in 3rd, something else in 4th, 5 in 5th/6th, something else in 7th, 7 in 8th). She really likes grammar it seems (just not having to write it!) so with us schooling year round, I don't want to move too quickly through R&S, but have no idea what to use in place of it some years or if that's even a reasonable idea!

We all highly respect your thoughts Carrie...you know that's why we all pick your brain. :wink:

Oh, and hope you don't think I'm hijacking the thread! I'm hoping someone else can gain some insight from this as well since it is at least on topic! LOL :D
~~Tamara~~
Enjoying HOD since 2008

DD15 long-time HODie finding her own new path
DS12 PHFHG {dysgraphia, APD, SID}
DS9 PHFHG
DS6 LHFHG
DD new nursling

Carrie
Site Admin
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Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by Carrie » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:24 pm

We actually considered doing just what you're suggesting which would be alternating a full-year of Rod and Staff with a year of the Queen's Language Lessons series to give a rigorous year followed by a gentle year of grammar instruction. So that would work if that was your heart's desire. :D

The reason we ended up going with Rod and Staff at half-speed instead of alternating programs by year was so that kiddos would have consistency and not lose the systematic understanding that Rod and Staff had given them during the rigorous year. However, we also wished to prevent any grammar burnout by either parent or student, hence the advice to do Rod and Staff at half-speed in the middle (to keep progressing steadily forward with a gentler twice a week schedule). :wink:

We also found that much of the Queen's series overlapped with what was already scheduled within our guides and the Queen's did not include the excellent writing instruction found within Rod and Staff. So, Rod and Staff at half-speed fit our overall goals for both grammar and writing instruction better, but we scheduled it with a more reasonable pacing. :D

Blessings,
Carrie

MamaBear23Cubs
Posts: 221
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Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by MamaBear23Cubs » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:44 pm

I just wanted to pop in and say that my daughter has used FLL1-3 and enjoyed it so she is continueing with FLL4. (It only goes to level 4). I had already started FLL1 when I found HOD. I tried R&S because it was recommended here, other forums, the WTM book, and other homeschoolers but it just didn't work for us. It wasn't hard for her (R&S3) she just preferred FLL3. When I asked what to do next she asked for level 4 and no to R&S4.
Military wife and Mama to 3 (DD12, DS8, & DD7)
Have used: Little Hands For Heaven, Little Hearts For His Glory, Beyond Little Hearts For His Glory,
Bigger Hearts For His Glory, and Preparing Hearts For His Glory.
http://livinglifeonthehomefront.blogspot.jp/

meg|momof4
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:49 pm

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by meg|momof4 » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:07 pm

I'm planning on doing Beyond this school year with my 1st and 3rd grader, but will be using the LA part of Bigger for my 3rd grader. I keep going back and forth between what to do for English, and would love any thoughts. He has done FLL the past two years. I am torn on doing R&S 2 or FLL 3 with him. the retention issue would be my incentive for switching to R&S... thoughts?

my3sons
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Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by my3sons » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:46 am

R & S English has excellent retention - I think it is the best grammar program I've seen! I also much prefer the way HOD integrates CM skills into their guides (often linking it to the history, science, or Bible) giving it more purpose, rather than just having it done in a random way not linked to anything in particular. :wink:

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

grandsophy
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:10 pm

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by grandsophy » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:25 pm

I am trying to find information on Language Arts within Heart of Dakota. We're using Queen workbooks this year because I like the gentle approach in the younger grades. Next year we're going to need something else though. I see some language resources listed in the catalog near Drawn Into the Heart of Reading. Are they scheduled within DITHOR, or do they come with their own schedules, or is it up to the parent to schedule them throughout the year?
3 Daughters
4th grader: Teaching Textbooks, Portraits of American Girlhood, Queen Language & CLE Science
Kindergarten & 1st Grader: Little Hearts for His Glory, CLE Math, CLE Language

my3sons
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:08 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by my3sons » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:30 pm

What ages are you looking at LA for? DITHOR is for ages 7-15 years old, and has so much to offer. It provides genre studies, prereading skills, story elements instruction, vocabulary work, Godly character traits studies, reading comprehension discussion questions according to Bloom's Taxonomy, unit projects, and Student Workbooks with neat graphic organizers - all done with living books that either you choose or HOD has chosen book sets that you can use. We've done DITHOR 7+ years now and still love it. Our dc have a passion for reading and have learned so much from DITHOR!

But HOD has even more to add to their LA. It has Charlotte Mason style LA skills planned in each and every guide. I cannot say enough good about these methods. I've read a lot about CM's methods, but wanted a little more guidance in how to best go about helping my dc be successful with oral narration, written narration, dictation, etc. HOD has made CM's methods a cinch for me. The guidance is just enough to help my dc be successful with CM's methods, without altering the intended natural learning that is the outcome of them. What's best IMO, is all of these LA skills are taught within the context of living books already being used in HOD's history, science, storytime, Bible, etc. So, rather than using random resources or selections for dc to use as copywork, for dc to give narrations, etc. HOD ties it all to the excellent living books already being used for other subject areas. This promotes better retention and also gives outstanding resources to be used for this purpose. I'd love to describe more about them, but it would help me if you let me know the ages of your dc, as I can explain that level of CM skills in HOD better.

HOD also included creative writing lessons, poetry study, and writing within R & S English. So, the well-rounded balanced LA approach HOD has in their guides is a key reason I enjoy it so. :D HTH!

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

grandsophy
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:10 pm

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by grandsophy » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:04 pm

I'm looking for language arts for my fourth grader. I'd planned to use Queen but I see that HOD recommends Rod and Staff. When I was a homeschooler several decades ago, Rod and Staff had a reputation for being a bit behind grade level, so I've never even looked at it. It has been several decades though, so they may be quite different now!

Queen is a little too Little House on the Prairie for us at times. (We live in Las Vegas and some of those "describe how a skirt dries on the line" questions are a little stretching for us!). I wonder if Rod and Staff would be a better fit, or if it too is very farm-family focused. I don't mind my kids learning about farms, it's just nice if the sentences they are punctuating don't need big explanations of terms!

And I don't like all the copywork in Queen. Does Rod and Staff have less?
3 Daughters
4th grader: Teaching Textbooks, Portraits of American Girlhood, Queen Language & CLE Science
Kindergarten & 1st Grader: Little Hearts for His Glory, CLE Math, CLE Language

my3sons
Posts: 10702
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:08 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: Differences between Language Arts...

Post by my3sons » Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:46 pm

Well, R & S English is now considered to be quite advanced. In fact, Grades 7 and 8 of R & S English are considered high school credit worthy. For this reason, HOD has a goal of having dc complete Level 6 by the end of grade 8. R & S English is very Christ-centered, which is one of the many reasons we love it. The examples used are excellent! :D It has a reputation of being a very solid English program. HTH! :D

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

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