charlotte mason philosophy

[Mindy N. Nava]

Hi. This is my first time using HOD...we had used A Beka prior. I am just really frustrated right now. All of this "orally narrate and recall and relate it to your own life stuff" is not going anywhere. I just get a bunch of "I don't knows" out of my daughter (we are using preparing hearts she is in 3rd grade age Also, I don't understand why she is being taught world history now and not American history. I just feel like she should know where Texas is on a map for geography. I don't know...I'm just frustrated. The copy work is another issue I am having. I thought the point of copy work is to learn sentence structure and spelling, but my daughter's eyes go all over the page so she ends up misspelling words or skipping words etc. It just seems pointless. She cannot do any of the independent work on her own either which is frustrating. We are on unit 9...Does anyone else have this problem? The vocabulary seems a bit daunting as well. First of all, we use a real dictionary and the lettering is so microscopic I have to help her find all of the words. Not only that, but it takes FOREVER and of course she can rarely use any of the words in a sentence of her own. I just feel like I have to think for her almost all the time. Grrr....help!! The curriculum takes a long time to do. My daughter is not an auditory learner and a lot of this is reading to them. I don't know what to do. It doesn't make sense to have her learn to spell by looking at and copying stuff. We used A Beka for two years so she is proficient in phonics (I do like A Beka's approach as it makes sense to me) so I try to go with that rather than just memorize words. It's almost like Charlotte Mason goes off of memory instead of truly understanding the concept of what goes into spelling and grammar. Am I wrong?

[LynnH]

First 3rd grade is on the young side for Preparing, especially since she has never done HOD before. It really sounds like she is not placed correctly. Wondering if you looked at the placement chart for her before putting her in Preparing. Proper placement is key to success with HOD. Going from Abeka to HOD is a huge switch for kids. Oral and written narration are much more difficult for most kids than just answering fill in the blank spaces or what is a typical comprehension question. It requires a much deeper level of thinking and for the student to really understand what is being read to them or what they are reading. Having said that though it is a skill that takes awhile to learn. Most dc are not natural narrators.

As far as American History vs World History most dc in 3rd grade would do Bigger Hearts for His Glory which is American History. They do learn state locations in Bigger Hearts. For kids coming all the way up through HOD they would have had 2 years of American History before doing Preparing.

With copywork again Preparing is higher level copywork. In Beyond and Bigger they copy smaller passages so they can get used to how copywork is done. You could break the copywork down into smaller sections and maybe even let her put a piece of paper under the passage so that she can follow along.

With the vocabulary work again it sounds like she isn't placed properly. I also would use a Children's Dictionary first so she can learn the skill of looking words up.

Studied dictation works on the premise that you want dc to see the correct way to spell words and it will become a habit for them to spell it correctly. My dc was in ps where he did the weekly spelling tests based on studying the list and memorizing the rules. He did great on the spelling tests, but didn't carry it over into his every day writing. He has done studied dictation for several years now and scored very high on his end of year standardized testing in the area of spelling. It carries over into his every day writing. He can look at a word and know he has spelled it wrong.

At the beginning of a guide there should be a few skills they need to grow into to do them independently if that is how the box is meant to be done. However there needs to be some of the boxes that are marked Independent that they can do on their own after a few weeks of learning what is expected of them. A child properly placed should take about 4 hours to complete Preparing.

[Molly]

This sounds very much like my younger daughter when I tried to combine her and her older sister in Preparing at the beginning of last year. I ended up using Bigger for her and now that she is in Preparing she is flying, and enjoying it all very much. Definately double check the placement guide.

I wholeheartedly agree with the wonderful advice Lynn has given you.

[psreit]

I agree with Lynn. it sounds like your dd maybe should be in Bigger. My dd had some of the same problems. When we did Little Hearts and Beyond, it took a while for her to get used to copywork. She's had problems with eye convergence that probably made it worse, but with me copying it larger on a white board, and sitting with her to make sure she stayed on track, she is doing well on her own to copy things. She had problems loosing her place while reading, and still does somewhat, but that has gotten better. I used a pointer or put something under each line to block out some of the page. A lot of words on one page was overwhelming for her. My advice would be to make sure your dd doesn't have eye convergence(teaming) problems and also consider putting her back in Bigger. It takes some sacrificing to sit with your child through all of the work, but it doesn't sound like your dd is ready for that yet. There were times I didn't think my dd would ever learn certain things, but my work with her has paid off. I can leave her alone to do her cursive and also some of Explode the Code. We are doing that for continued phonics practice because of her reading struggles. Little by little. It may take her longer to become independent, but she is progressing. It will get better. Don't give up.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Hi. This is my first time using HOD...we had used A Beka prior. I am just really frustrated right now. All of this "orally narrate and recall and relate it to your own life stuff" is not going anywhere. I just get a bunch of "I don't knows" out of my daughter (we are using preparing hearts she is in 3rd grade age

As someone who grew up with Abeka in private school, Abeka is memorization. It is rote learning. You memorize answers for tests. There is a definitive right and wrong answer to everything with Abeka. They are closed questions. Oral narration is more of a tell me what you learned from this reading type of learning. It is to get your kids thinking outside of quizzes and tests. It is more discussion and less drill and kill answers.

Also, I don't understand why she is being taught world history now and not American history. I just feel like she should know where Texas is on a map for geography. I don't know...I'm just frustrated.

I agree with the previous poster on this one. Maybe she isn't placed properly. Have you looked at the placement chart? Bigger is normally 3rd grade and American History, but I have used other curricula and 3rd grade was world history. There really isn't an order you have to do it in at this stage. It will be repeated in middle school and high school.

The copy work is another issue I am having. I thought the point of copy work is to learn sentence structure and spelling, but my daughter's eyes go all over the page so she ends up misspelling words or skipping words etc. It just seems pointless. She cannot do any of the independent work on her own either which is frustrating. We are on unit 9...Does anyone else have this problem?

Have you tried using post-it notes to target the area she is to copy? Like placing a post it note above what she is not copying and below what she is copying so the only part of the page showing is what she is to copy? That has worked for a lot of people.

The vocabulary seems a bit daunting as well. First of all, we use a real dictionary and the lettering is so microscopic I have to help her find all of the words. Not only that, but it takes FOREVER and of course she can rarely use any of the words in a sentence of her own.

I would get a child's dictionary or an elementary dictionary. We have 3 levels of dictionaries here. 1 that is for my youngest in elementary, 1 that is for my intermediate grades, and 1 for junior/senior high grades. The children use the one appropriate for their age/grade. Seton sells great dictionaries at these 3 levels.

I just feel like I have to think for her almost all the time. Grrr....help!! The curriculum takes a long time to do. My daughter is not an auditory learner and a lot of this is reading to them. I don't know what to do. It doesn't make sense to have her learn to spell by looking at and copying stuff. It's almost like Charlotte Mason goes off of memory instead of truly understanding the concept of what goes into spelling and grammar. Am I wrong?

I don't know what to say. Abeka to me was a lot of memorization and rote learning which never carried over into anything but their tests. I have used Abeka with my kids here and there as well. The concept of dictation and learning proper writing from copywork is not solely Charlotte Mason. Children have been taught for hundreds of years with this method of copying proper writing and spelling to retain it. That is what the first spellers were truly.
It is hard to teach a certain way if you don't understand the reasons behind the method. Have you read the introduction in the front of the guide? Have you read the intro to dictation that talks about the rhyme and reason behind HOD methods? Do you feel that your daughter placed well into Preparing?

We used A Beka for two years so she is proficient in phonics (I do like A Beka's approach as it makes sense to me) so I try to go with that rather than just memorize words.

.
Did you do through 2nd grade ABeka? Being familiar with Abeka and how it is taught...completing 2nd grade Abeka would not give the skills to go into Preparing. The 2nd grade grammar book for Abeka is still based a lot on phonics. It is actually Letters and Sounds 2 alongside Writing with Phonics 2. You don't get to grammar with Abeka until the 3rd grade book. You would find the 3rd grade Abeka book would shift considerably and the 4th grade grammar book intense. I know people have used Preparing for 3rd but most had been through the earlier guides of HOD with their students. This is just my opinion but I would look at it like you went from 2nd grade Abeka into an unfamiliar learning style curriculum that would be considered at least 4th grade skills coming into it having not used HOD previously. I can tell you that yes Abeka's history would be American History in 3rd, you would also shift from phonics into reading more steadily and longer readers (you would not be required book reports yet), the grammar book would be simple worksheet style fill in the blanks mainly, there would not be much creative writing at this point either, your child would be reading the material to herself but it would be much simpler dialect and vocabulary and shorter passages to enable student led learning. 3rd grade Abeka history would be a biographical review of great men and women in American History which is what Bigger is in HOD.

Maybe take a look at the placement chart and see if your daughter is placed incorrectly. http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

[Mindy N. Nava]

Yea. I was actually looking at my friend's curriculum who's daughter is the same age as my daughter and when I looked at the placement chart...my daughter fell into all the categories seeming ready for Preparing Hearts. So, will she repeat this level next year since she will only be 9? It just seems like a student could go through the curriculum twice because there is such a vast age range. I know there are add ons. It's just a different teaching method. I guess I will just work with what I have and try my best to muddle through. Thanks everyone for your input.

[Molly]

The other suggestion would be to slow down and go half pace and just work closely with her under she understands and can do things with more ease. It really is an entirely different way of learning. It does take time to adjust.

In relation to your question about going through the Preparing guide twice, you shouldn't need too. If she has finished Preparing confidently then she will be ready for Creation to Christ.

[Molly]

I was just thinking that maybe you could do a little reading on the Charlotte Mason philosophy. I found it really helpful to understand what we were aiming as an end result. This is the reason I love HOD, is because I can see what a great love of learning combined with a great education my children will have in comparison to what I had.

[Tidbits of Learning]

It is a totally different way to learn and it can take a kid a bit to get the swing of narrating and realizing there isn't a set answer to the question but a main idea to convey. Do you have a copy of the oral narration guidelines for student for her while she is trying to narrate? I made a copy for each of my kids so they kind of could look at it before trying to narrate to me. I laminated it to last through the kiddos. You can give a nudge if it helps to get the narration going. Look at the key idea and try to see if you can get her there with a bit of help from you. My kids that did years at public school had the hardest time adjusting to narration instead of question/answer format. We had to go over the narration list together for a while each time they narrated so I knew they knew what they were expected to give with an oral narration. The same with the written narrations.
For example--
Say you are on Unit 9 Day 3 and she is saying I don't know for the oral narration...well you have the key idea in front of you...you could say, "Wasn't there some poems written about the war we just read about?" Then see if that sparks her memory. The key idea talks of Homer's 2 poems about the Trojan War. I have definitely had to coax some narrations out when we first started doing them with the girls.

[annaz]

Hi. This is my first time using HOD...we had used A Beka prior. I am just really frustrated right now. All of this "orally narrate and recall and relate it to your own life stuff" is not going anywhere. I just get a bunch of "I don't knows" out of my daughter (we are using preparing hearts she is in 3rd grade age Also, I don't understand why she is being taught world history now and not American history. I just feel like she should know where Texas is on a map for geography. I don't know...I'm just frustrated. The copy work is another issue I am having. I thought the point of copy work is to learn sentence structure and spelling, but my daughter's eyes go all over the page so she ends up misspelling words or skipping words etc. It just seems pointless. She cannot do any of the independent work on her own either which is frustrating. We are on unit 9...Does anyone else have this problem? The vocabulary seems a bit daunting as well. First of all, we use a real dictionary and the lettering is so microscopic I have to help her find all of the words. Not only that, but it takes FOREVER and of course she can rarely use any of the words in a sentence of her own. I just feel like I have to think for her almost all the time. Grrr....help!! The curriculum takes a long time to do. My daughter is not an auditory learner and a lot of this is reading to them. I don't know what to do. It doesn't make sense to have her learn to spell by looking at and copying stuff. We used A Beka for two years so she is proficient in phonics (I do like A Beka's approach as it makes sense to me) so I try to go with that rather than just memorize words. It's almost like Charlotte Mason goes off of memory instead of truly understanding the concept of what goes into spelling and grammar. Am I wrong?

It's definitely a learning curve since the CM philosophy isn't contrived questions and regurgitation of information. It's more of a retelling what was read, philosophy. The questions don't usually have black and white answers, but invoke an opinion or what kids think scenario. Did you look at the Teacher's pages on narration skills. With beginning narration, sometimes you have to lead that for the child. Also the child can start a page at a time, even a paragraph at a time if she needs to and just have her tell you what happened. Small increments, baby steps. Lead her with the beginning of what happened and see if she can finish it. Sometimes it's even okay to model the correct answer. You retell it, so she knows what is expected.

As others mentioned I would find a children's dictionary. The print is larger. Again model the answer. That way she knows what to do. If you have more than one word, you do one and have her do one so she understands how to do it.

As far as dictation "I" find a phonics base helpful, but dictation is using that knowledge and putting it into context. This as well is learned. It's proofing, it's spelling, it's vocabulary all rolled into one.

So you mentioned you're thinking for her. Don't look at it that way, but look at it as modeling. You do it, then have her try, leading her to answers. Ask her a goofy question. "I hear "xyz" did this in the book!" And she may correct you and say no, ""stu" did this!" That's a starting point! The CM philosophy is getting kids to think for themselves.

I hear your frustration. But remember your frustration rubs off onto the kids as well. Ah...so many times, I've been frustrated then my dd picks up on it and ends up with the same attitude of "it's too hard", etc. But we've all had our kids say, "I don't know" over and over and they'll do it no matter what you use. But it's up to Mom to guide them or even give an answer here and there for them to understand what is expected.

The guides skill level go from guide to guide. So your dd has all year to master the skills in the Preparing book. Yes, there is an Independent box. She should master this skill by guide end, not necessarily in the first 9 weeks. And that's for all the skills of the guide. If we could do all these skills right away, there would be no purpose to skill building or learning. So we see what is expected, work toward that goal during the year, perfecting it, then move on to the next guide next year where you'll have a few more "I" boxes.

[LynnH]

You wouldn't want to do Preparing twice. If you can't afford to change to Bigger (although I think if you bought from HOD they do have some sort of return policy if you bought the wrong level, but I am not sure of the details), then you could do Preparing half speed. You are technically a grade ahead by doing Preparing meaning if you continued with HOD you would get to the high school guides too quickly so slowing it down won't hurt anything. I really do think you would be happier if you could switch to Bigger. The way you describe your daughter her skills would fit much better there.

[annaz]

Yea. I was actually looking at my friend's curriculum who's daughter is the same age as my daughter and when I looked at the placement chart...my daughter fell into all the categories seeming ready for Preparing Hearts. So, will she repeat this level next year since she will only be 9? It just seems like a student could go through the curriculum twice because there is such a vast age range. I know there are add ons. It's just a different teaching method. I guess I will just work with what I have and try my best to muddle through. Thanks everyone for your input.

But I believe the placement chart has writing along with narration. Narration is a hard skill for a lot of kids and many who come from a more traditional way of learning. So you may want to back up a guide.

If she completes this guide this year, she wouldn't repeat it again. The levels are simply an approximate age. We use the guides at the latter end of the age range. Some use the guides at the lower end, but you don't repeat a guide if you've already completed it. Carrie has completed guides to grade 9 and is working on grade 10. So doing the guides using the later age on the guide would take you through high school. Some people that use the lower end of the age on the guide find they have a year they need to fill. But some find that they need to take a guide slower than the normal year; taking it at half pace, to get the skills down. CTC is a big leap from Preparing. So my thought would be to back up a guide and solidify the CM method if it's the path you choose.

Every guide is more than auditory. In fact I'd say that HOD hits on every type of learning style there is in every guide. Bigger is the most teacher intensive then Preparing moves kids to independence where you are seeing the "I" box. Bigger most stories are read to the children.

I think perhaps looking more into the CM philosophy would be a good idea.

[StephanieU]

Yea. I was actually looking at my friend's curriculum who's daughter is the same age as my daughter and when I looked at the placement chart...my daughter fell into all the categories seeming ready for Preparing Hearts. So, will she repeat this level next year since she will only be 9? It just seems like a student could go through the curriculum twice because there is such a vast age range. I know there are add ons. It's just a different teaching method. I guess I will just work with what I have and try my best to muddle through. Thanks everyone for your input.

I totally understand where you are with the placement. In the Summer, I looked a the placement chart, and thought my daughter places firmly into Beyond. And then I looked at what was actually going to be expected. I looked at the path HOD takes. And I looked at what the "actual" grade level is of Beyond. And I realized that Little Hearts for His Glory was a better option, even though my daughter COULD do Beyond. One of the keys is how long it should take to do a day's worth of learning. As kids get older, the days get longer. My daughter didn't need the longer days just yet. She needs to stay a little girl as much as possible, spending time playing house with her brother and sister for example. I think those of us that have used SOLID curriculums like Horizons and ABEKA are more likely to want to push our children. We are often academically driven, and switching to a CM-style is a BIG change. The more I researched HOD and CM, I learned that Carrie writes the guides to best meet the average child at the middle age range. So, LHFHG is best of ra 6yo, Beyond for a 7yo, Bigger for an 8yo, etc. Really advanced kids can be at the younger age, but much of it is maturity. Since math, grammar, and spelling/dictation can be set at the appropriate levels, going for the younger guide is often best. And if you look at the placement chart for Bigger and Preparing, you will see that there isn't a lot of difference as a result. So, I would definitely consider dropping down to Bigger if you can afford it and save Preparing for next year. If that isn't an option, then go to half speed until she can do the work as written/suggested without much extra help from you.

[mom23]

You wouldn't want to do Preparing twice. If you can't afford to change to Bigger (although I think if you bought from HOD they do have some sort of return policy if you bought the wrong level, but I am not sure of the details), then you could do Preparing half speed. You are technically a grade ahead by doing Preparing meaning if you continued with HOD you would get to the high school guides too quickly so slowing it down won't hurt anything. I really do think you would be happier if you could switch to Bigger. The way you describe your daughter her skills would fit much better there.

I agree with this.

Placement with HOD is so key to making it work for your family. For me, that was the hardest part of coming into this curriculum. I placed one child too low, and another too high, and both were disasterous. Having gone through both Bigger and Preparing I'd really recommend that if at all possible you consider a switch to Bigger. As soon as possible. After you go through Bigger, just start Preparing again. You'd be amazed at the difference a year can make, especially a year in the previous guide that can adaquately prepare her for these skills. I'd hate to see you leave HOD, thinking it wasn't right for your family, when a better placement could have made all the difference.